Vera Baird DBE KC

Chair Criminal Cases Review Commission. Member Women’s Justice Bd.
Ex Victims’ Commissioner, Solicitor Gen & PCC. Fellow St Hilda’s Oxford. Writer. Labour Party

Tag: vera baird

  • Commissioner Welcomes Firearms Licensing Fee Increase

    Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner Vera Baird has welcomed the announced increase in firearms licensing fees.

    The Home Office announced the increases on Thursday which are said to create a fairer and more effective system for forces, licence holders and the general public.

    The increases will be applied to new and renewals of firearms and shotgun certificates from April 6 and will be the first time there’s been a rise since 2001.

    Northumbria Police currently recoup around 80% of the cost of issuing a licence. These increases mean the granting or renewing of a firearms or shotgun certificate would become largely cost neutral for the force.

    Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner Vera Baird said: “Fees for firearms licensing are set down nationally and have remained the same for many years. I have called on the Home Office to implement these fee changes for some time, I’m pleased that they have now taken action.

    “The current fees simply aren’t sufficient to cover the processes carried out by Northumbria Police to grant the certificates.

    “In an average year, the force grants 600 certificates and renews 2,541. These numbers reflect the force’s large rural area within which many farmers, gamekeepers and landowners keep guns for vermin control and hunting. It’s also an area where organised shoots are common.

    “Like all other forces, we are facing further deep budget cuts in Northumbria and are constantly looking at all our activities to ensure we can make savings and efficiencies.

    “Anything that can help Northumbria balance the books is of course good news and the increases will see us become cost neutral when issuing or renewing a firearms certificates in the future.”

  • COMMISSIONER WELCOMES HMIC REPORT – VULNERABLE CHILDREN AND ADULTS NEED CARE, NOT CUSTODY.

    Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner Vera Baird has welcomed an HMIC report which finds that children need care, not custody.
    In January 2014, the Home Secretary commissioned HMIC to conduct a thematic inspection on the welfare of vulnerable people in police custody. The inspection looked at a number of areas which included those with mental health problems, those from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and children.
    The inspection considered the end to end process. Inspections were undertaken in six force areas, Northumbria was not one, but Police and Crime Commissioner, Vera Baird QC, has committed to learning from the report to ensure Northumbria Police delivers the best care possible when dealing with vulnerable children and adults.
    There are a number of recommendations in the report which Northumbria Police will review carefully to ensure local practice follows national guidelines.  The Force’s current custody action plan and equality delivery plan already cover some of the areas highlighted in the report.  Commissioner Baird will now ensure that the report is updated to include the information highlighted in the HMIC report.
    Vera Baird said: “Custody suites and the use of handcuffs or limb restraints are for those suspected of committing a crime – not for people who are suffering mental health.  In Northumbria, we have dedicated nurses who provide support to people suffering from mental health. 
    \”Moving forward, Northumbria Police will continue to work with partners to ensure the best service available is given. I expect to see a reduction in the use of police custody for those suffering from mental health issues or vulnerable children in custody”.
    Northumbria Police is about to extend their successful street triage project where police officers and mental healthcare workers work together at peak times to avoid detaining people under the Mental Health Act and ensuring they get the support they need.
    Conclusions of the report found that custody should also be avoided for children. Where appropriate, Northumbria Police will seek alternatives to arrest. This could include a voluntary interview at a station, a person’s home or solicitors’ office.
    Mrs Baird added: “We can learn from this HMIC report, moving forward we will continue to work with partners to ensure effective support for young people is achieved, rather than bringing them in to custody. 
    \”The street triage is having a positive effect and improvements to our electronic records system will help ensure we are recording all the information expected by HMIC. 
    \”Northumbria is doing well, our drive and determination will ensure we are delivering an outstanding service for vulnerable people and children in custody.\”

  • Vera Baird addressing national conference on the Investigation and Prosecution of Rape


    Northumbria’s Police & Crime Commissioner, Vera Baird QC, will be addressing a national conference in London on Wednesday 28th January, which will be focusing on the Investigation and Prosecution of Rape.


    The conference, which is being hosted by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), will hear from experts in this field, including Director of Public Prosecution, Alison Saunders, Professor Liz Kelly from London Metropolitan University and Vera Baird QC.


    Mrs Baird will be speaking about the innovative Court Observers Panel that she has established in Northumbria. The panel, which began its work this month, will now be present at all adult rape trials at Newcastle Crown Court.  
    It is made up of people with relevant expertise on the topic, drawn from the voluntary and community sectors, including lawyers, and then given special training to take part.


    The panel will report back to Mrs Baird in her role as Northumbria Police & Crime Commissioner, particularly noting the unacceptable appearance of any myths and stereotypes in court, such as the suggestion that victims have in some way contributed to what has happened; for instance, by the way they have dressed.


    The Court Observers Panel will also consider whether the complainant\’s needs are being properly considered in each case, whether the impact of sexual abuse on the ability to testify is being properly taken into account during proceedings and any sense of the victim being tried rather than the defendant.


    It will work as part of a new system in tandem with the Rape Scrutiny Panel, which will be similarly drawn from the voluntary and community sectors. The Rape Scrutiny Panel also begins work this month and will examine case files where it has been judged that no crime has been committed, or which were said not to have achieved the required threshold of evidence to be sent to the Crown Prosecution Service. They will also examine failed prosecutions, to look for ways to improve the process for future occasions.  


    Vera Baird said: “Having to give evidence in a rape trial is very traumatic, and it is important that the courts appreciate this and ensure that the needs of the victim are always considered and that inappropriate questions are myths are dealt with.  

    “I\’m delighted to have the opportunity to share Northumbria’s innovative panel experiences at the CPS.  I’m hopeful that delegates present will want to see similar panels in their communities.


    “I want these innovations to increase confidence in the process, encouraging victims and witnesses to report incidents, whilst assuring defendants that any improvements in the system will protect them too.”   

  • Northumbria Police – Top 100 employer for LGBT people.

    Northumbria Police has been recognised as one of the top 100 employers for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in Britain.

    The news, which was welcomed by Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner Vera Baird, comes as it was revealed Northumbria Police ranked 85th in the 2015 Stonewall Workplace Equality Index – the first time the force has been ranked in the top 100.

    The Workplace Equality Index i…s an effective way to measure organisations’ efforts to tackling discrimination and creating an inclusive workplace for lesbian, gay and bisexual employees. Organisations participating are actively demonstrating commitment to sexual orientation equality.

    Assistant Chief Officer Bernie McCardle said: “This is a huge achievement for us, the force constantly strives to improve as an equal opportunities employer and create a workplace where people can be themselves without fear of discrimination or prejudice.”

    Northumbria Police has been able to achieve an inclusive workplace through activity in our Joint Equality objectives with the Police and Crime Commissioner. Examples of activity include; development of inclusive Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGB&T) policies and procedures, support and sign posting through an internal LGB&T network group, introducing equality led procurement practices and delivering of diversity and victim led training.

    The force regularly supports events within the region that celebrate LGB&T communities and officers and staff, including the force’s volunteers, regularly attend both the Newcastle and Sunderland Pride Festival and take part in the Pride Parade as well as flying the rainbow flag to recognise International Day Against Homophobia (IDAHO) and supporting LGB&T History Month.

    Vera Baird has six advisory groups including one which is dedicated to LGBT issues. This group meets with her and her office to discuss any concerns they have and what is going well in the force region.

    She said: “I am delighted that Northumbria Police has achieved a place as one of the top 100 employers for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in Britain and this is a testament to the work which has been carried out by the force.”

    Director of human resources Joscelin Lawson added: “This achievement highlights the efforts we have gone to in order to make the organisation an even better place for lesbian, gay and bisexual people to work. The force aims to create a workplace where diversity can be celebrated.”

  • RSPB PRESS RELEASE – Police Commissioner fund helps protect Northumberland wildlife sanctuary

    PRESS RELEASE – Police Commissioner fund helps protect Northumberland wildlife sanctuary

    A community fund, set up by Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner Vera Baird QC, has awarded the RSPB a grant of £2,000 to help prevent wildlife crime at its Coquet Island reserve.

    Situated a mile off the coast of Amble, Northumberland, Coquet Island is home to tens of thousands of breeding seabirds during spring and summer including the UK’s only colony of roseate terns. As a result, the island is designated as a wildlife sanctuary and landing on it is prohibited without consent.

    The RSPB will use the grant to upgrade the island’s outdated CCTV system so wardening staff can monitor the island effectively for illegal activity such as egg theft and disturbance of roseate terns. 

    Although surrounded by sea, Coquet Island’s wildlife is at risk from wildlife criminals. In 2004, rare roseate tern eggs were stolen and in July 2012 two brothers from Amble caused reckless disturbance to breeding roseate terns when they landed on the island.  

    Paul Morrison, Warden at RSPB Coquet Island, said: “This generous grant from the Police and Crime Commissioner means that we will be able provide greater protection for the UK’s rarest seabird and make staff feel more safe and secure when working on the island.

    “It is also a powerful endorsement of the RSPB’s view that wildlife crime is a serious issue that needs to be tackled head on with the right resources.”

    Vera Baird QC, Police and Crime Commissioner for Northumbria, said: “Tackling wildlife crime is an important priority and I am pleased that we have been able to support the excellent work of the RSPB to help protect some of the UK’s rarest seabirds on Coquet Island.  Northumbria Police and I will continue to work closely with the RSPB to help protect rare birds and to stop the theft of birds eggs.”

     

    For further information and to arrange an interview, please contact:
    Chris Collett, Regional Communications Manager, 0191 233 4317 / 07885 834889

  • Open Letter to Mike Ashley re Ched Evans.

    Open letter from: Vera Baird QC, Police & Crime Commissioner for Northumbria

    To: Mr Mike Ashley, Sports Direct

    Mr Mike Ashley

    Newcastle United Football Club

    St James Park

    Newcastle upon Tyne

       

    5th January 2015.

     

    Dear Mr Ashley,  

    I am writing to you following media speculation that Oldham Athletic Football Club has received reassurances from its biggest sponsor, Sports Direct that they will not withdraw £1m sponsorship if Oldham sign Ched Evans, despite Oldham\’s main stand sponsors Verlin Rainwater Solutions saying it will end its association with the club if Evans signs.

    As the owner of a great football club Newcastle United, you know the pride that fans have in their club, the players and the heritage of the club.  My office works closely with Newcastle United Foundation and has funded a number of initiatives working with young people to help them understand what is right and wrong. Your football players are an inspiration and we are well aware that players are role models for thousands of young people, like the ones we have met and talked to at events.  This pride will be the same for the young people who live in Oldham.

    As you know, the passion of football is in Newcastle’s blood and I know passions also run high at Oldham Athletic; the team of my home town and one which I have watched many times, especially when I lived there as a young person.

    Footballers are role models and it is wrong that Oldham Athletic are considering signing Ched Evans, who is a convicted rapist.

    I have a strong commitment to rehabilitation of people who have accepted their guilt and served their penalty and giving work to these people is part of that. However, Ched Evans does not seek rehabilitation from his criminality. He denies the crime and supports the use of a website which persecutes his victim – www.chedevans.com

    The Lord Chief Justice said there were no grounds whatsoever for an appeal and it is clear that Evans had sex without consent when no reasonable man would have thought she was consenting because she was too drunk to do so –https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

    There is no clash of evidence which could justify any attack on her character.  Nothing could justify the hounding which has caused her to move house five times (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/28/ched-evans-rape-victim-change-name-move-house-father) and which Ched Evans has been called on to disown or stop but, having failed to do either, has condoned.

    He should not be taken on as a footballer with the high profile heroism that young people attach to such figures. It is tantamount to saying that sexual abuse is okay as long as you can play football.  If Oldham Athletic decide to appoint him, I would urge you to withdraw Sports Direct sponsorship at the club. 

    Sports Direct needs to speak out now, before any board meeting. Your stance needs to be unequivocally clear – that there is no place in British football for unrepentant convicted rapists. 

    Taking the right decision today will show all victims of rape that the trauma they face in reporting such a crime isn’t in vain.

    Yours sincerely
     
    Vera

    Vera Baird QC
    Police & Crime Commissioner – Northumbria

  • The unacceptable situation at Yarl’s Wood calls for an independent inquiry.

     

    It is right that Labour has committed to hold an inquiry.

     

     

    \"Yarl\'s

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Photo: Getty:  A security guard at the gates of Yarl\’s Wood.

    Yvette Cooper, the shadow home secretary, is right to have pledged the next Labour government to hold an inquiry into allegations about events at Yarl\’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre. The allegations of sexual assault by male staff against the all-female detainees are very serious and there are strong inconsistencies between the responses of the private security firm Serco who run the facility and the Home Office regarding what has actually happened there.

    What is certain is that the Home Office has recently reappointed Serco to operate, maintain and manage the centre for eight more years – a contract worth more than £70m. It is unacceptable that the continued holding of pregnant women, trafficking victims and people who may have been tortured continues indefinitely. An inquiry should have been held by the government into the situation before any contract was awarded. This is why the shadow home secretary has made a clear statement on how Labour will address these issues.

    In the spring of this year, Rashida Manjoo the UN Special Rapporteur, was on a fact-finding mission into violence against women and girls. She was turned away at the gates of Yarl’s Wood. As she rightly said at the time: “If there was nothing to hide, I should have been given access.”

    What goes on within the facility should be transparent and the scraps of information about reported incidents there are a cause for great concern.

    These include:

    •          Claims that a detainee who died last March had initially been denied medical assistance. There were further allegations that staff at the centre refused NHS offers to help other women distressed by the death.
       
    •          The upholding in January 2011 by the High Court of claims by two families that they had been unlawfully detained.  The Judge at the time noted that “no one can seriously dispute that detention is capable of causing significant and in some instances long lasting harm to children.”
       
    •          A hunger strike in 2010 when more than 50 women at the centre refused food in protest at their indefinite detention. Some of these women also claimed they had experienced racial and sexual abuse.
       
    •          Allegations in 2013 that a photo suite within the facility’s Avocet accommodation wing had become a clandestine venue for sexual relations between officials and women residents. One detainee also claimed that many younger new female arrivals were targeted by male staff almost as soon as they arrived.
       
    •          Staff were reportedly sacked for engaging in sexual activity with a detainee, while another staff member was allegedly sacked for not reporting the matter after they were informed about what had occurred.
       

    The government had a responsibility to address and investigate these issues before awarding Serco a contract worth £70m.

    Furthermore, we need to know why Serco and the Home Office differ so markedly on reports of the number of abuse cases which have occurred. Figures from Serco show that sexual contact complaints are almost eight times higher than the Home Office admitted in a freedom of information response dated 21 November. Serco also said it has received 31 complaints while the Home Office has indicated it is only aware of four.

    The Home Office says that only one case has been substantiated, yet Serco says it has sacked 10 staff members over alleged inappropriate behaviour.

    These are serious discrepancies and this presses the case for an open and transparent investigation to clarify the extent of alleged sexual misconduct inside Yarl\’s Wood.

    I\’m pleased the shadow home secretary has committed to finding out the truth. She has also pledged to use some of the additional 1,000 staff that she recently announced Labour would introduce to speed up the backlog of asylum claims which has risen by 70 per cent in the last year.

    It is not acceptable that applicants are spending years in detention, wasting money and their own lives.

    It is very difficult to understand why the Home Secretary has rewarded this contract to Serco. Theresa May had the opportunity to give Yarl’s Wood the fresh start that it needs, but failed to take it. It is ironic that a firm that overcharged the Justice Secretary by nearly £70m has been awarded a similar sized contract by his colleague.

    The women who arrive at Yarl’s Wood deserve to be treated with the respect and courtesy that would be afforded to anybody else, not to be fearful of possible intimidation or sexual abuse. 

    Action is needed at Yarl’s Wood. I’m sorry that the women currently there will have to wait for a Labour government in May for this to happen. The coalition has let them down, but Labour has now pledged that it won’t.

  • Leading Labour’s commitment to women at the next General Election – Northumbria’s Police & Crime Commissioner

    Vera Baird QC, Police & Crime Commissioner for Northumbria, will today release the findings of a report which will influence the next Labour Government’s agenda on delivering for women across the north east and United Kingdom.

    In 2011 the Labour Party asked Vera Baird to lead ‘Everywoman Safe Everywhere’ Commission and come up with recommendations for the next Labour Government. An interim report was produced in 2012 with the final report being published today (Wednesday, 10 December, 2014).

    The research covered many areas affecting women – from legal aid to services for victims of domestic violence.

    The report asks the next Labour Government to do more than just reverse the last five years of decline by putting tackling violence against women and girls at the heart of our modern welfare state.

    It proposes a statutory obligation on Government and local authorities to develop integrated domestic and sexual violence strategies and the establishment of a new Commissioner to tackle violence against women and girls, to drive their implementation and bring national standards of service to all.

    The report encourages reforming how services are commissioned, refocusing on the practical need for specialist women-centred services with a track record of success.

    Vera Baird said: “I was delighted to be asked by Yvette Cooper to lead this Commission, as it’s allowed me to put the changes we’ve implemented here in Northumbria on a national platform.

    “The work happening in our region can be used as a model of good practice by the next Labour Government. The main job for Ed Miliband and his team is to develop an integrated domestic and sexual violence strategy. If we get it right from day one of the next Labour Government we will change lives for a generation.”

    Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has already accepted one of the report’s recommendations for a new national refuge fund, to provide the safe places that women and children need and national Rape Support Funding on a three-year cycle, to give rape crisis centres real security.

    Vera Baird added: “The Shadow Home Secretary’s actions show how Labour take women’s issues seriously and we are committed to providing safe places for women and girls when they need it most.

    “The Commission’s recommendations are about fixing this issue, in all its myriad forms, including forced marriage, trafficking, slavery, harassment, honour crimes, FGM and prostitution; putting them at the heart of the modern public services that Ed Miliband’s Premiership will deliver. Next we should work on a strategy with the Department of Education, to prevent violence against women and girls in coming generations so we can also drive a lasting legacy of culture change.”

  • Vera’s View – Changes to police bail.

    The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 gave police the power to bail someone who has been arrested while they investigate an allegation. Its authors could never have imagined that today there would be an estimated 70,000 people on police bail and that 5,000 of those have been on bail for more than 6 months.

    A growing number of politicians, lawyers and former ministers have demanded reform. There are no time limits, which can punish people by restricting their freedom when there is only suspicion against them, not even a charge. The police can add conditions,for instance a curfew, a condition of residing at a particular address or a ban on associating with specific other people. Any one of these can have a hugely restrictive impact yet it is difficult to challenge their fairness. The government has cut legal aid so solicitors are less often at police stations to make representation. Custody sergeants are not particularly likely to listen to suspects themselves. However unfair or restrictive bail conditions are , it is a criminal offence to break one.

    Campaigners want to see a time limit of 28 days after which the measure must be reviewed by a Judge not the police.

    The police have a duty to investigate crimes in a timely manner.  Mr & Mrs X were arrested on 27th September 2012 and their homes and offices searched. They  were interviewed and bailed to return on March 12th 2013, with a condition of residence imposed and their computers and iPads seized.  They were re-bailed repeatedly until June 30th 2014 when  they were warned that the investigation is continuing but were released from bail. Clearly it has to be asked why they were ever on bail in the first place.  In West Mercia one person has been on bail for more than 723 days and will hear this month if their case is to be referred to court.

    The issue has come to the fore because a number of journalists arrested in the phone hacking scandal were on long term bail and then told there would be no further action. Similarly “celebrities” such as Jim Davidson and Freddie Starr who faced sexual abuse allegations were bailed didn’t go forward that make the headline.

    These recent long-term bail victims have Theresa May to thank.Three years ago the Home Secretary had the ideal opportunity to change the law. In May 2011, a curious High Court ruling in a case called Hookway said that nobody could be kept on police bail for more than 96 hours. This was in answer to the problem, even then, of people being kept on conditional bail for far too long, but it clearly it left the police with severe problems.

    The Home Secretary did nothing for weeks and then rushed through emergency legislation simply reversing the case and restoring the status quo. She made no attempt to find a balance between the liberties of the bail victims and the reasonable requirements of a police investigation. If there is to be legislation shortly, as campaigners demand, it means that she will have enacted two sets of law, within three years, having opposite effects and, in the meantime, hundreds of people have continued to suffer unnecessary limits on their freedom and arguably a breach of their right to be considered innocent until proved to be guilty. As the then policing Minister, Nick Herbert said, the Home Secretary had just allowed the police to operate on the same basis as they had for the last 25 years.

    In contrast, the College of Policing carried out a consultation and found that when people are bailed pre-charge, the effect on the police is that the investigation loses momentum.Officers know that they have the option of just repeatedly bailing people and with no pressure of time, other cases take priority. In the aftermath of this report, one police force challenged itself to cut bail times and easily succeeded. In light of those findings, from the police themselves, there really can be no argument against a time limit on pre-charge bail.

    In Northumbria, police are making more use of asking people to come to the police station voluntarily – this reduces the demand on custody suites too. If there has to be an arrest for any reason, people can still be released without bail while investigations continue. It is only if those two avenues are considered and reasonably rejected that it can possibly be justifiable to arrest and put a person onto pre-charge bail. In that situation, only necessity and not convenience, can justify the imposition of conditions and the bail itself must, obviously be time-limited.

    The campaign wants to see a time limit of 28 days but as a Police and Crime Commissioner I would not want to see officers spending time away from inquiries and going to court to justify extending bail when, for instance, it is frequently the case that forensic science reports take a number of weeks.

    A maximum of twelve weeks would give the police a reasonable time to investigate while not imposing greatly on personal liberty. The level of injustice currently being suffered by 70000 people many of whom will never be charged with an offence but are spending their lives on restrictive bail is such that, one opportunity having been wasted it is now urgent for the Home Secretary to introduce legislation to settle this issue

  • Ahead of the Autumn Statement – How Labour will make a difference,

     

    The mood of Britain last week was to enjoy “Black Friday” that became Black weekend as shoppers headed to stores and online to grab a bargain or two.

     

    Today could become “Black Wednesday” depending on what the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, will tell the House of Commons.  We already know this government has broken promise after promise, cut funding to our police service (since 2010, Northumbria’s budget has been cut by more than £80 million) and forgotten about our region. 

    The Tories came to power on a promise to balance the books by 2015  which they have broken. When Labour win the election in six months time, Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are set to inherit a large deficit – which they will address.  Income tax receipts across the Parliament are set to fall short of their 2010 expectations by more than £66 billion and receipts from National Insurance Contributions are a further £22.5 billion lower across the same period – less money in means less to spend on services such as police, schools, NHS and protecting our vulnerable people to name but a few.

    The last few years have been hard for families, real median wages for full time workers have fallen by more than £2000 since 2010.  In Northumbria, I have played a small part in improving the salaries of lower paid members of staff by introducing the Living Wage, all cleaning staff within Northumbria Police now benefit from an increase in pay of more than £1 per hour.  Prior to this the service was contracted out and the cleaners were on the minimum wage.  There are still more than 4.9 million workers earning less than the Living – this is something that must change in the next Parliament.

     

    We need a government that is going to support the 1.4 million people who are currently on zero-hours contracts – many of the people affected work regular and predictable hours but don’t benefit from sick and holiday pay.  I know that with Ed Miliband as Prime Minister, we will see zero hour contacts abolished.

     

    It will be interesting to see what George Osborne says in his Autumn statement, as he has to account why the Tory led Government has borrowed more in four and a half years than the last Labour government did in 13 years.  The Chancellor needs to explain why he has borrowed almost £4 billion more than he did in the same period last year. 

     

    Labour is clear that we need an economic plan that can earn our way to rising living standards for all.  I want the next Labour government to help families in Sunderland and Newcastle just as much as David Cameron has helped millionaires with their tax break in this Parliament.  I want Labour to be given the opportunity to build 200,000 new homes a year to help get first time buyers on the property ladder.

     

    Let’s help the next generation by creating more apprenticeships. Since I took up my post of Police & Crime Commissioner, my small office has been able to help boost the career of two young people by securing them apprentice opportunities.  Ed Balls has made no promises without saying where the money is coming from, the Labour Party manifesto will have no commitments paid for by additional borrowing.

     

    Labour will balance the book, I suspect George Osborne will shuffle a few pages today – he has failed to deliver over the last four years, he has forgotten the North East.  I know it will take a Labour Government to make the changes happen that we want to see.